English Club Chatter

Hopefully, I can become a successful writer with the knowledge I am gaining in my pursuit of an English degree. In other words, I hope to fool someone somewhere into paying me for my ideas. Or something like that.

Nic

I thought I'd contribute a couple of things to this thread. First, let me offer some links to websites that respond to the "What to do with an English major" question:

http://www.utexas.edu/student/careercenter/careers/english.pdf

http://www.uncwil.edu/stuaff/career/Majors/english.htm

Second, when we had the face-to-face chat about this topic last year, some felt it was useful or informative to hear about the life experiences of the faculty. We've all done English degrees, after all, and we've also had a variety of jobs (other than being university professors), so we might offer a random sample of "what you can do...." I'd encourage my colleagues to pitch in too, if they feel inclined.

I've had a variety of jobs, some more serious (i.e., longterm) than others. The less serious include running the Box Office for a Baroque orchestra, working in various book and music stores, and edited digitized speech for educational software programs. On the other hand, just because I didn't pursue these longterm doesn't mean someone else couldn't. When I worked in bookstores, for instance, a good friend who was coming back to school had been running a small chain of bookstores in Toronto, and making a pretty good living at it. Some business know-how is necessary if you want to get into the managing of bookstores, but this is easy to pick up (it doesn't need a business degree). The "books" part of the job you'll have.

My serious jobs were as a musician and a high school teacher. A career in music doesn't require an English degree, though it doesn't hurt. Teaching high school English is, of course, an obvious career path for English majors. It can be wonderfully rewarding work, if you enjoy working with people (especially young people) and you want to continue in an educational environment. It's a closely guarded secret, but one reason many of us go into teaching is that we really want to stay in school -- reading, discussing, learning about literature. There are also a host of education-related jobs that don't involve direct classroom teaching. I knew a guy, for instance, who wrote textbooks. Educational software is also a boom industry.

Teaching at the college level is also, of course, an option, though that means graduate school. A number of OSU-Mansfield have gone that route (with different areas of focus -- literature, rhetoric, writing), and it might suit you too. Something to think about carefully, though, because it's a competitive market.

Drifting from my personal experience a little, I had a number of friends who majored in English. Some of them went into Law, for which English and Philosophy seemed the most popular majors (with Law Schools). One or two went into advertising, a remarkably creative field actually, for which writing (not to mention digital media) skills can be very useful. Writing, as Nic mentioned above, is also an obvious area for English majors to head into. What does that mean though? Creative writing is so difficult to do in a professional way that I'm not sure I'd recommend it as a "career" (though talk to writers). Journalism is an option. And remember that just because degrees exist in "Journalism" or "Communications" doesn't mean that's what you have to have in order to be a journalist. English works fine (possibly even better, depending on the job). My sister-in-law has a Ph.D. in English and works for McGill university, doing grant writing, in house writing (reports, newsletters, websites, various documents). A good friend from graduate school dropped out and got a job on Wall Street editing for J.P. Morgan. Reading, writing, editing, and organizational skills open a LOT of doors. Another grad school friend was thinking of working for a developer who built shopping malls (really!). The guy was very interested in my friend, because he was impressed by the skill he demonstrated in his academic work -- mainly organization and communication.

That's enough from me for now. I'm sure others will pitch in with other job/career stories.

HH

Hmmmm........

When I was in my undergrad English major, I was talking to a CEO of a company, and he told me a lot of companies seek out English majors for jobs. He told me most of the jobs are learned while working and that what he likes about English majors is that they are trained to think critically. He felt that this was helpful in thinking through problems comprehensively and making connections and spotting trends that others might not think about.
So, don't let your English degree stand in the way of looking for jobs in the business sector. Just because you don't have a degree in some aspect of business, does not mean they won't take a look at you.

The knowledge that we can confidently seek employment in the business sector is a small comfort considering that most English majors love their major; which is English, not business. The same sentiment applies to teaching, upper management, franchise operations, and every other career I can think of that has ever been suggested to me in my capacity as an English major. I am so glad that we are having this discussion because I have felt very bent out of shape concerning this issue. I do not like the fact that we, as English majors, must enter the work force and adapt our specialized critical thinking skills to the mundane little world of other homosapians. I am sure there are some really great jobs out there that would be vary rewarding, but I think we all know what we all want to do--it's just doing it that is the problem. Did you guys know that only about fifty people in the United States make their living solely from writing? And I'm not even talking extreme wealth here, people. Anyway, go ahead and argue with me, please. This is one thing I wouldn't mind being wrong about. Oh, and I realize that Dr. Hamlin made a good point about teaching on a college level, but guys, seriously, the ratio of job opportunity verses applicants can't possibly be in the favor of the million English majors vying for those positions. I know, I know, I'm no fun, but I would just feel better if we were all as realistic as possible on this issue.

Perhaps the question is not what to do, but how to do it?

I'm not sure what it is you want to do. My guess is that you would like to be paid to write, and I'm guessing you would prefer to be doing some artistic writing at that. Well, the realistic version of that story is that you're going to have to pay the bills or find someone to pay them for you, while you passionately work on your writing. Ahhh, where are those patrons of old? But, really, entry level writing careers aren't likely to include the freedom to publish creative writing, so it will probably take some time.
But why get bent out of shape? Surely you knew this going into this major. And why do you think you wouldn't come out on top for university level teaching? You're already laying down some impressive groundwork, and you are talented.
So, what's a girl to do? If you're interested in continuing in an environment geared for the English major, then you belong in grad school. It's just life after all, and I'm guessing you would never regret pursuing that end. But that's just me.

Hmmmm. Well, there are many ways in which I could respond. If I took the tough, adult, rather curmudgeonly approach, I'd say, life's tough, you can't always get what you want, etc., etc. Which is, of course, true. One drawback of studying English is that we spend a lot of time reading the work of people who could afford not to work (most anyone writing before 1900). Or who were lucky enough to be able to work at writing (Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Arthur Miller, T.S. Eliot -- mind you, being a Renaissance playwright was rough work, Dickens started as a bootblack and parliamentary reporter, and Eliot worked in a bank and publishing house). Or who are now famous as writers, but were entirely unknown in their own day (Emily Dickenson, Gerard Manley Hopkins, even John Donne and George Herbert, whose poems weren't published until after their deaths). The truth is that very, very few people can make a living as creative writers.

However, some can, and I'm not one, so what do I know? And many writers can SORT of make a living at it, by teaching at college or university, doing other kinds of writing to pay the bills, or holding down some other kind of money-making job entirely (Wallace Stevens, famously, was a successful insurance agent).

One thing I'll say, which I actually said before, but it was wisked away by the blog gremlins, is that studying English is, or ought to be, about more than vocational training. To speak personally, I didn't choose to study English because I had a passion to be a university professor. I was a music major, studying clarinet, and I took a class on the great books at the foundations of western culture (Homer, Greek tragedy, Dante, the Bible, etc.). Reading this stuff, and talking about it, was REALLY exciting. So I changed majors. After I graduated, I spent several years working as a musician. Various frustrations mounted, so I went back to school and did a Masters in English. Then I taught high school for several years, because that seemed like something I could do where I could earn a living and still do things that excited me (read, discuss literary works, teach). And then I decide to go to graduate school, again because I was drawn to the idea of reading, thinking about, discussing, and writing about all these wonderful writers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the excitement about literature -- whether reading it, writing it, discussing it, teaching it, or writing about it -- comes first, and apart from what ou do fo a living. Fashioning a career is another matter. But just becaue you don't get a job as a poet, doesn't mean you can't write poetry, or even enjoy the job you have (whatever it involves).

HH

Of all the things I would like to be, I have a strong feeling I might just end up with a very good vocabulary and pouring coffee for a living.

Really, I have particular aspirations, but my heart is not absolutely set on them. Being a professional writer is a lot like breaking into the movie or music biz, something I dreamed of as a kid, but I'm a realistic person.

I will go wherever the wind or MONSTER.COM takes me...

Also, please excuse the blog gremlins who have stolen some of your posts. We are working on a solution.

Verifying database integrity. No need to respond.

Thanks for the candid responses, everyone. My earlier posting came from a place of great fear and intrepidation. It's time to apply for grad school and I feel like I'm about to sell my soul. I'm sure everybody feels like this before they apply. Right?

Mine felt more like a time-share.

Grad school felt like a time share? Please elaborate:)

Naw, I never elaborate on silly things that I say. Like i've said a hyperbolic number of times, it doesn't matter what I say, it's all in the delivery. I guess that gets lost in a blog.

Oh, and Sarah, I tried to respond several times to your email about the Immaculate Cauldron, but they keep getting kicked back. So, if you want, can you email me with a different address?

Graduate school application processes had really stressed me out until I found at a southern university in the state of Tennessee, but not at the UT, or TSU, a University that has a Master's Program that suits my skills.

A Master's in Storytelling.

-able to score at least 400 on GRE(tell everyone 650)
-Have to be avid coffe drinker.
-Have large database of life's experience for story material.
-Be able to communicate to all ages.
-Must believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Just a joke..........the MA Program is real, but requirements.......priceless!!

Hello all!

I am currently trying to market my English degree. However, one problem that premises this conversation is the current job market. While I feel that an English degree is valuable for many reasons (and marketable for many reasons), Mansfield (and Ohio for that matter) may not be the place to market such a degree. I have a relatively strong resume considering that I just graduated, and I am still unable to find a job that's not in retail or restaurant work.

But as to writing...I think that writing is like music. We do our best work when we do it for ourselves. None of us should plan on being paid, or even care to be paid for writing. If we were concerned with $$$ then we wouldn't be English majors in the first place. Besides, how good would our writing be if we wrote in a vacuum free from bills and friction and the the kind of circumstances that fuel the pen.

Well said, Aaron:). I was feeling very irate about the lack of possibility for career writing, but you brought up a really great point when you said, "...how good would our writing be if we wrote in a vacuum free from bills and friction and the kind of circumstances that fuel the pen." However, now I'm happy and I won't be able to write...

I haven't looked for work in Mansfield, so I can hardly contradict Aaron and others who have. On the other hand, it may be that finding good jobs in Mansfield is not easy whether you have an English degree or not (is it easier with, say, a degree in Psychology, Education, or even Business?).

I'd stress what I've said before, that an English degree is seen as an asset by many employers, not just in fields you'd expect (like Journalism, Editing, and Teaching, for instance). And don't discount the possibility of finding meaningful work as a writer. Your chances of landing a position as "Poet in Residence" may be slim, but there are lots of jobs that involve writing.

Back to the Mansfield question -- not that we who live here wouldn't like to have you around, but you should remember that ALL job/career options in Mansfield are limited. It's a small place, off the beaten track of mainstream (or even non-mainstream) culture. If for whatever reason you want to or have to stay in Mansfield, that's one thing. (And it's not like it's a wasteland!) But if you're not committed to staying here, think about expanding your horizons. And this needn't involve anything TOO terrifying. If you want to head to New York or LA, great. But Cleveland and Columbus are only an hour or so away and they both have many more options than Mansfield for job-hunting English majors. Cleveland especially has a thriving arts community and some impressive cultural institutions. Columbus, too, has lots going on, and it's one of the fastest growing cities in the US.

Remember, too, those of you who are thinking of graduate school, that attending a university in another city will give you a chance to explore your options there. Columbus has a strong English program, but don't limit your horizons unnecessarily. See what your options are elsewhere in Ohio and even beyond! And take risks. You can't be accepted somewhere if you don't apply. When I applied for Ph.D. programs, I applied to a variety of schools, some that seemed a long shot (Yale, Harvard), and some that seemed more reasonable (Michigan, Virginia) -- I think maybe I applied to one other, but I can't remember. I ended up getting accepted and rejected by one from each list. So I went to Yale. If I'd stuck with applying to just Michigan (or Toronto, where I lived and was comfortable), I would still have gone to graduate school, but I would never have known whether I could have gotten into Yale. This doesn't mean you all have to apply to Yale and Harvard, but look around and see where you might really like to go. Then give it a shot (though talk to us faculty and get the tips you need to make your application as strong as possible!!).

HH

Just to chime in with some further thoughts, even though I think what's here is great (I especially agree with Jim's comments, way above, about how business is learned on the job and employers want smart critical thinkers who can write): for those of you dying to do something "creative" (that word means different things to different people), having been born and raised in the NYC area and then having lived in Los Angeles for a long while, advertising and (more palatable) the film & tv biz are places where people find rewarding and creative careers. I worked in a law firm in New York a floor below a major ad agency, and boy, did they have cooler toys and decor up there! Get started as a copyeditor in an ad agency. If you're smart and talented, work hard, and have some luck (it takes all of these components), you will likely find yourself rising quickly. I'll admit that one of the hardest parts of this or similar career tracks is that New York and LA are ground zero, and it's really tough to save up enough money (or get a contact) to move there and have enough time to try to land a job. It's tough, but people do it all the time.

You can do ad agencies in LA, too, or Public Relations firms (more fun in LA because NYC PR is all about business, usually). But the big fun is the entertainment industry. English majors who want to do something creative are great for positions in what they call "development" (not fundraising, as in some organizations such as OSU, but finding and fostering movie projects). Get in the door as a script reader, providing digests of scripts submitted to a studio for the higher-ups who actually make the decisions on whether to move forward with a project. Again, if you're smart, skilled, work hard, and have some luck, you'll find yourself on your way.

Another career English majors do well in is editing (yes, editing--stay with me here), whether in film or tv. Editing is about taking a whole bunch of video or film footage and putting it together to (drum roll, please) tell a story--that's right, tell a story! It's hard to get your foot in the door, and it helps to become an assistant to somebody (read: get coffee) who works the complicated editing machines / software, but again, smart, talented, hard-working, and lucky, and it'll work (I have a cousin doing it right now successfully). The studio folks talk about how getting trained in some tech school on their editing equipment is not necessarily important, because the studios are always using the latest stuff, which the schools often don't yet have. More important is knowing how to tell a story well (and yes, sometimes that story is a commercial for Alpo--you gotta start somewhere, people! don't snob yourself out of a great career by being too "good" to start at the bottom). I've heard editors telling people, read the classics! (In fact, that's what this cousin of mine spends much of his spare time doing.) You need a knowledge of great storytelling, which, as an English major, you might have.

Other ways to get into the entertainment biz (without trying to be the "talent"--the actor, singer, etc., or even the writer, who is not typically referred to as the talent, sorry to say) include become a "production assistant" on a film (read: gopher coffee and doughnuts, but you remember that bit about smart, hard work, etc.?) or a writer's assistant on a tv show. Again, not glamorous jobs, but I have a friend who became a writer's assistanton the X-Files back when it was running, and eighteen months later, his own X-Files episode was airing.

All this is to say, if there's an industry you love and that will inspire you even when you're starting at the bottom schlepping mail and coffee to people who aren't nice to you, that could be a homing beacon for your fulfilling career path (eventually).

So these are my two cents' worth. And yes, whoever above said the PhD in English is dangerous because there are so few jobs in college teaching and the competition is out of control--that's true, and I would say if you can think of anything else you'd be happy doing, do it! It's an amazingly wonderful job, but it is an enormously high-risk profession to try to get into (come talk to me or email me if you'd like to talk more about this).

That was very informative, but it sems that the key to some future success with this major is reaching students before they declare English as a major. If the career paths are this winding, it seems that perhaps a major that offers a more advantagious ending would be much more suitable to students right out of high school searching for a lifelong career. For those that already teach English at the university level, I guess need maybe to exercise caution in suggesting that the opportunities are so limited. If in fact, this is true and it seems to be, all of us that have some interest in pedagogy should ask ourselves some serious questions about the future. There are only a limited number of English courses that are part of the core curriculum anywhere. If students lose interest or are steered away from pursuing degrees in English then where does that leave all of the professors and instructors that have to teach those limited number of classes?? Maybe this type of comparison lends some comparison to the effect of the electronic media on book publishers and those related fields. The complications may be minimal at the present time, but what could happen in the near future as codex books become fewer or even obsolete. The same may be true with these university positions in pedagogy. What is the future is students do not opt for English degrees because success after college is limited.

Just my own 2 cents.
48 less than FIFTY!!

Freshmen shouldn't be advised not to pursue English degrees because of the low success rate. Instead American society should reexamine its silly preoccupation with nonliterary careers. Obviously, the world is evil and there's no immediate solution. If people want to major in English then what's the harm in a life well wasted? Sure, we can't all be college professors, published writers, ect., but we can all sure as hell read Poe, Shakespeare, Plath, Camus, Walker, ect., and add our bricks of understanding and insight to the already crowded wall. And to those of you/us who are ambitious and brave enough to join the rat race: good luck.

If I may clarify my comments about becoming a literature professor, above: I think undertaking a PhD in English is a risky venture, though it can pay off wonderfully; but that's an entirely different question from undertaking a BA in literature (i.e., becoming an English major), which is not at all a risky venture. English majors find a high success rate in all manner of professions. English continues to be one of the top few largest majors at OSU and at other universities, and for great reasons!

As for the PhD route to college teaching, I don't want to give anyone false hope, but I heard from a friend last night about him and other newly finished PhDs who are looking for jobs this year that the market for college teaching jobs in English is improving. Yes, TJ is right that there are many societal and economic pressures that make literature less of a valued commodity, but on the other hand, look at the wild success of the Harry Potter books--people are definitely still reading! And employers (and law schools and med schools) are increasingly valuing people who can read and write at high levels of proficiency. On top of that, demographics suggest that the population of college students will continue to grow over the next five to ten years. I would not expect a boom in English professor jobs, but it is definitely possible that the market for those jobs will improve if the economy remains sound.

The trick about predictions for English prof jobs is that it takes so long (5-8 years) to do an MA and PhD in English; nobody can predict with confidence what the market for English profs will look like that far into the future.

Again, if you're really into pursuing that route, talk to me (or if enough of you want it, I'll write a bunch more about the highs and lows of that route on this site). I still get excited when I find a bright, creative student bent on doing a PhD! I just feel ethically bound to give everyone fair warning (when I applied to PhD programs, some of those programs felt the same way: when they sent me their applications, they actually included a cover letter explaning how bad the job market on the other end was, warning potential applicants to beware).

At the risk of stirring this pot some more, I have to state that not every English major's sole goal in a career in writing. Like I said earlier, to me becoming a (successful) professional novelist is a lot like becoming a music or movie star: I like the thought, but that's not the only thing I can see myself doing. Likewise, with teaching; I have long thought of pursuing a PhD, but not necessarily right away. Maybe I can stand a little real world experience before shunning its evil non-literariness. How many of our professors here actually started out on the path to academia, and how many were high-school teachers and stock-brokers and singers and construction workers and so forth?
As for Todd's idea of the future that students don't pursue English degrees because of the lack of success after college is limited, I have to disagree. I think what limits a person's success is when they limit the options they give themselves. There have been dozens of ideas for careers for English majors offered in this short thread, and numerous resources available for the research of careers. I personally choose not to limit myself to one or two (especially difficult ones to reach) because I feel that I am able and willing to adapt myself to the 'real world', be it literary or not.

P.S. Jim Buckley says that most of the writers we read now didn't have college degrees, so maybe those of us who want to write should drop out and develop an opium addiction or something ;) I drink a lot of wine when I write, it's part of my obsession of Ernest Hemingway.

The thing to remember about opium is that a relatively small percentage of opium addicts were great writers. I'm not sure it's a sure career path!! (Same goes for liquor, though if you want to write detective novels, you might have to drink.)

The latest flurry of discussion is great, and Norman's contributions in particular are excellent. But you've all had good things to say, either raising questions or suggesting solutions. It's important to remember that everyone has a different range of interests (and abilities), and there are a host of different possible career paths through and out of an English major. What works for one may not work for another (and vice versa). The trick is finding what works for you. I hope this discussion helps, but, as Norman suggests, feel free to talk to the faculty too (certainly Norman or me, but I think I can extend a welcome on behalf of our colleagues too). We all have different experiences, different perspectives, and probably different advice. Take it all in, sift it, mull it over (to shift metaphors), and see what seems best.

I response to Todd, I'd say that I'm not sure career paths for English majors are any more or less winding than for other majors. I read or heard somewhere that the normal expectation these days is that everyone will have at least three major career changes in life. The days of the life-long career seem largely in the past (for many). What's important, I think, is not what program gives you the best training for job X (though if you know that's what you want to do, fine), but what prepares you best for life -- sounds flaky I know. But seriously, an English degree is extremely useful in a wide range of careers; this isn't true of all majors! And I'll risk a repeat of my pie-in-the-sky pitch for the value of English -- reading, discussing, and writing about literature is a good thing in itself, because it's fun, because it's illuminating, and because it makes life richer.